Anyway, I am interested in knowing if the Dayton Daily News publishes their newspaper on the WEB. I'm again only interested in local sports from home.
Thanks,
Patrick
(Yo Rwoody...you might consider not even peeking at someone else's copy of the paper on November 6th...)
From: Clott Scark ..... Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:08:17 -0600
Subject: Dayton Daily News
First of all, you are a coward for not putting your name and e-mail
address on your little Dayton Daily News bashing page.
Second of all, your grammar is not very good either. Example? O.K.
"On the bright side, THEY less 'news' they print, the smaller the chance
that I will be misinformed."
You wrote "they" instead of "the".
Third, you were probably rejected by the Dayton Daily News so many
times for a job that I can understand your bitterness.
I am not an employee, I am a Dayton native and am very happy with the Dayton Daily News. You need a life. Quit making little net pages and get a real job. The only reason I came across your page was because I was looking for the Dayton Daily News page.
Sincerely,
Clott Scark
So Orb said, when he could sputter coherently again...
Dear Clott...The reason I don't put my real name out here is that I've heard there are crazies out there who stumble across someone's web page and then get kinda screwy ... You ever hear of people like that, Clott? ... Thanks for catching my mistake and letting me know; I've now corrected it ... The DDN and your old lady have one thing in common; neither has ever rejected me (if you are married or have a girlfriend, 'old lady' would refer to her; if not, let's just say I'm talking about your mother) (or your boyfriend) ... Get a real job? That reminds me of a joke I heard. See, this civil service guy is arguing with this airforce guy about which one is the bigger goldbricking asshole - wait, never mind, you've probably already lived that one ... By the way, did you find the DDN page? Pretty exciting, no?....... And lastly, my dear Clott, how the hell did you mail me this if I didn't put my e-mail address on my page?
It probably goes without saying that Clott and I won't be doing any Lethal Weapon sequels together in the near future...
But then he sent this one...
From: Clott Scark ...... Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 09:16:56 -0600
Subject: Re: Dayton Daily News -Reply
Sorry I didn't catch your name. Should I just call you ORB? Turnabout is fair play, I understand that. So I'll start with an apology. But all of this is in good fun, don't you agree? Since this whole internet thing kick off, I've been intrigued with it all, and I guess I get a little "emotional" when someone bashes my home of Dayton. When you've been away from it as long as I have, you grow to appreciate it. So kudos to your web page, believe it or not, I enjoyed it and you have many valid points about The DDN. Funny old lady jokes too!!
Talk to you later,
Clott
I dunno. Maybe we could work out something like the Joe Pesci role for ol' Clott..
The Dayton Daily News, better known as the People's Daily News, is amongst the worst rags I have ever read. RE; YOUR STATEMENT ABOUT SPORTS...If you dial the number for those sports that didn't make the news because they concluded play too late (usually the Reds' scores when playing on the West coast), they give you the score of a game that took place a week or more before. The political leaning of the newspaper is left of whoopie. Labor strikes and democratic causes take front stage. In fact, there is so much reporting on the labor front, you'd think you had dropped back 40 years in time. A real time warp. The People's Time-Warp News. I like it!
S. Irwin
Raleigh, NC
because of the dayton dialy news remark. (no, i don't work for cox, inc.)
i was somewhat amused, but am moreso just sleepy and intending to sign off soon.
however, i thought that someone who chooses the internet as the appropriate place to blast our town's only paper might want to know that you have a spelling error in the first paragraph of you schpeel against ddn.
also - they get the ads right because the advertisers pay someone else to layout the copy and design.
fyi.
r
Sorry to read your notes on the current state of the Dayton Daily News. I lived in Xenia back in the late 50's/early 60's and back then the DDN was a good rag.
My morning paper here is the Daily News (Los Angeles). It's smaller than the Los Angeles Times, focusing on the northern third of the city (the San Fernando and surrounding Valley) instead of the entire Santa Barbara-to-San Diego region. Result is decent local coverage of most polital, social, sport and entertainment topics. They got a fair number of first rate journalist spread out across all their major sections. Weekdays it runs one section of news, one business, one sports, two classified, and one with the entertainment/comics/gardening/etc. The paper adds a View (editoral - leans towards GOP, but not on all issues, and not too far to the right), a Travel, and usually a second news section.
The Daily -- unlike the Time -- uses a mix of 6 wire services for national and international stories. Between that number of services, it gets a good balance most (but not all the time). (The Times will feature THEIR staff reporter's piece, no matter if they got the whole story or not).
My chief grip with the Daily is stories are short. Except for featured pieces (usually on Sundays) they rarely run more than twelve inches on anything but four or five front page stories.
f/n Burbank has a twice a week rag, The Leader. It's parent company publishes papers twice a week on different days for two nearby suburbs. Technically good (grammer, spelling, layout, etc) but the writting is spotty. Lots of 3rd raters doing the fill pieces and some of the lead reporters are want-a-be editorialists, or washed up political-types looking for an avenue to voice their old songs
I too, lived in Xenia. From the late 50's; 'till 1976, actually. Though most of those years found me an uninterested party (I was two years old when we moved there), I thought the DDN was a good paper myself. I think the lack of competition has led to the current lack of quality. When they had to compete with the Journal Herald (before they bought it, that is), both papers did a good job. Very recently, they ran a series on corruption in the Greene County court system that was very well done. Biggest uproar in the Xenia courthouse since the tornado, I'd reckon. Maybe not though...Xenia gots some weird sh*t happening these days....
I couldn't agree with you more! I refuse to even take it any more (didn't get it half the time when I was a subscriber). Now I get calls about three times a month from them asking if I want to subscribe. I mentioned to them the shabby content, and they come back about the wonderful coupons which, if used, will more than pay for the cost of the paper. Too bad there's no competition.
Kathy
I grew up in Dayton, with the Dayton Daily and Journal Herald setting the standard for my newspaper judgment. I have worked for several weekly newspapers in Indiana and Arizona in the three decades since. Last summer I revisited my hometown, and was amazed at the cleanliness and easy-reading of my old Dayton Daily News.
Personally, I found the ragged right copy much easier to follow ... I've been trying for years to get newspapers I've worked with to just try it (to no avail). I do understand some of the inherent problems with the new pagination technologies that often shift copy so the last line or two will get jumped. It's a trial and error process, but soon, I'm certain, the techno-whizzes at the DDN will get a handle on it.
Folks in Dayton are blessed by their news staff. Here in Tucson, our daily paper is mostly AP-wire and other news service information, with little or no local touches ... local reporters come and go in a few short months, offering no continuity whatsoever. Even the sports writing is hit and miss.
I look forward to reading the Dayton Daily News online from the comforts of my home office computer each day. Keep up the good work.
Bonnie Lewis
Tucson, Arizona
I've noticed your hatred for our local paper. My greatest problem with the paper is it's obviously lopsided reporting of political events. The Dayton Daily news has taken great steps on making it known to the whole world that they are bleeding heart Liberals and are going to report your news in such a manner void of any facts, or twisting the facts so it sppears to support their stance.
Dear Sir,
Just wanted to tell you a story. My junior year if high school at Beavercreek a very close friend of mine commited suicide. That was two years ago in March. As approximately one hundred students gathered around her grave during the burial, a Dayton Daily cameraman slipped behind us and got off a quick shot of the back of our bowed heads. The worse part of the whole situation was what they did with the picture. Not only did they place it on the cover, but they used it as reference to the poorly written article. As far as I remember, the article simply stated what happened and did not state how to prevent it from happening again. In a way that is like writting an aurgumentative essay without eplaining the other aurguments. Thus leadng to a poorly written paper, for a poorly managed newspaper.
Later
Greg Hojnacki, University of Cincinnati
Pretty sobering, I know...I decided a long time ago to print anything anyone sent me on the subject (after checking with them first (almost always)) ... so, be it Happy or Grumpy or Dopey or Bashful (but not so bashful that they ask me not to print it) or Heartrending (that's Sneezy's actual name - look it up!), it's here.
Hi there.
I live in Provo, Utah, and the newspapers here suck! Honestly, the Dayton Daily News is so much better than these newspapers will ever be. Seriously, they only ever talk about what is going on in our little valley out here. World news? What's that? I love reading the newspaper, but I have been deprived since I moved out here 2 years ago. Anyway, that's my little commentary on what my local newspaper is like. Good luck in your future newspaper reading days... :)
I grew up in Dayton, but have lived in various cities in the past, have now returned to live. I agree with you that the Dayton Daily News is a sham of a newspaper. It is truely aweful!!!!
i read the email that you have received. ditto most of the comments about the poor excuse for a daily paper. regarding the person trying to find their home page, he or she is probably still looking. they seem to keep it very will hidden. it is easier to find a little paper from YELLOW SPRINGS than it is the DDN. i love you site. keep it up.
jb
I carried the paper as a youngster and I have read it as an adult. Basically, I found the Dayton Daily News to be just like any other business. They tend to enlighten the individuals that would want to read the news in the way that they offer it. I think the biggest thing that ever turned me off about the Dayton Daily News has to do with racial overtones. I used to read the paper on a regular basis from 1990 until 1994. Keep in mind that I do not declare myself a racist in any form but, I was offended on many occasions by black writers at the DDN writting purely offensive articles that I would take as a serious racial slur being caucasian. I cannot believe that various articles were able to enter print and therefore I never considered them news worthy only offensive. If I were to write an article that depicted some of the things I read in the DDN that slurred any race, it would never enter print. I think you know what I am talking about
...So Orb said...
Thanks for writing! I'm not sure I do know what you're talking about, but you saying what you feel is ok by me. I've never felt slurred or offended as a white person, basically 'cause I've seen so many white people slur and offend so many races for so long, and sometimes completely oblivious to the fact that they were saying anything that could be construed as bigotry, or so arrogant in assuming that ANY white person would share their prejudice, I figger anything coming my way is justifiable fallout (yes, I am a caucasoid)(but you can call me honky if you wanna).
Well, howdy ---
I'm a lo-o-o-o-o-on-n-n-ng-g-g time subscriber to the DDN. When I get pissed at shortcomings or mistakes in the DDN, I call the reader's rep. She always calls me back (one time she told me that she had read one of my letters to the editor) and she explains why things are the way they are. For example, the smudges and dirty edges that sometimes make the paper-damn near unreadable will be fixed with new equipment when the paper ops are moved.
Nobody likes change. I find that I have to accommodate change or go crazy---and I find that I usually get used to changes and appreciate them after awhile. If you cannot accommodate change you may be TOO DAMN OLD! Sorry 'bout that. Hey, I'm mid-50s meself...
As far as competition, it aint gonna happen. There is not a sufficient market for 2 papers in Dayton. I find that the op-ed columnists run the gamut from liberal to conservative. I appreciate the diversity of viewpoints. I even read the narrow-minded foolishness that Mona Charen spews forth --- after I've eaten!
Mistakes happen. When they do, call the reader's rep. In addition, there are all those cool papers who offer access to vast amounts of content on the Web. I read St. Petersburg Times and New York Times Editorial Pages and The Irish Times (Dublin).
I admire your page and links. I'm more of a geek (writer) than a nerd. I
know just enough techno to get into trouble
I love my Dayton Daily News---I wish they would be less critical of my
President --- but --- I love 'em.
Junk paper... I refuse to subscribe... even with free offers.. and will be soon published out of town.... room for competition.
Are you a Dayton Native? I've been told many times by others from
(especially) the eastern states that the DDN is the worst Newspaper they
have ever seen. There is an intangible something that sets it apart from
other Newspapers I've read when abroad. It would be interesting to compare
any one days output of errors to any other Newspaper's for comparison. Are
you game?
As for TV stations, I watch Cincinnati's. Every single one of them seems
better organized and more professional than Dayton's. Is Dayton the news
equivalent of a backwater town?
The Dayton Daily News is a waste of good ink and paper. I live just north of Dayton (Tipp City) but work in Cincinnati. It's a good thing, too, because I can read the Enquirer or the Post. But the Dayton paper is so poorly done. Here's why:
1. You listed some instances of errors. My High School paper had less errors per issue than the DDN--No Kidding! And these are supposed to be professionals.
2. My brother-in-law is a fairly well known author who just published a novel about downsizing. It is going to be made into a movie by Warner Bros. He attended UD. I called a lot of media because he was going to be in the area, and I set up alot of interviews for him. DDN never returns my calls. Finally the book reviewer calls and says she would love to interview him--she called a week after he was here and gone. And I gave her the dates on the original message! His interviews were published in the Cincy Enq and the Cincy post and NPR, etc. So much for a good story with a local connection.
3. Need to know what is going on in the Dayton area and surrounding communities? Don't go to the DDN and don't-God forbid-call and try to find out from the community affairs editor. I have, they have no clue.
4. Last year they had the gall to raise the price of that rag from .35 to .50!
5. When friends come to visit from out of town (Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Atlanta) I am actually embarassed to admit that the DDN is the only paper I can get. I hear comments like, "Where's the story, the pictures are nice but where' s the story?" or "They don't publish the mutual fund tables? What the hell is this? I didn't know Dayton was such a small community." So much for boosting Dayton's image with the rest of the world. I would subscribe to the NY Times if I could afford it. What does that say about my local paper. The fact that I would even consider a daily paper from NY over the local paper?
6. Thanks for letting me vent. The fact is myself and people like me are mad because we have to buy that piece of sh_t. It's the only game in town. I long for the day when a real newspaper comes to Dayton.
AB Tipp City
Hi,
You asked about newspapers...we of course have one of the best newspapers in the world, "The Washington Post". Funny, I used to call the Dayton Daily News, the "Dayton Daily Snooze".
Is Ann (don't-know-a-good-restaurant-when-I-eat-in-one) Heller still the food critic? That's also a joke most of the time.
saadc
From: Wise A ... Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:14:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Dayton Daily News
From: Nathan N. Common ... Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:18:33 -0400
Subject: Awful Daily News
From: AB from Tipp City...Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 11:51:14 PST
Subject: The Dayton Daily News
From: Not Jim or Spock or Bones.......Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:15:29 -0500
Subject: Newspapers
Just happened to see your page about how bad the Dayton Daily News is. I thought it was really funny. I'm originally from Dayton...just moved to Washington, D.C. a year ago.
From: The Mahans .......Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 07:40:58 -0500
Tis Great - the newspaper, that is.
From: Les Morehead .......Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 10:02:28 -0500
Subject: DAYTON NEWSPAPER
I AGREE WITH YOUR OPINION 100%. IF WAS ANOTHER PAPER LOCALLY I WOULD BE
GONE IN A HEART BEAT.
LES
From:RANDALL B NAPIER"....Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 03:51:22 -0500
Subject: Dayton Daily News
Right on.When they decided to move there ops out of Dayton I canceled my subscription. I figured that if they couldn't stay in the town where most of the money comes from, who needs them anyway. And I don't even live in Dayton.
From: Gary.......Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:49:08 -0400
Subject: Dayton Daily News
You're right... the biggest problem with DDN is no competition as far as other local newspapers are concerned. Everything they print has a "touchy feely" approach from animal rights to foreign policy. Glad I'm not the only one who has noticed.
From: Mailitz.....Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:20:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Dayton Newspaper Does STINK !!
I will have to agree with you totally !!! We stopped our subscription nearly two years ago and they still keep pestering to take it at a discount or free. Thier delivery service sucks just as bad as the paper. Luckily we live in warren co. and are able to have the choice of The Cincinnati Enquirer. Much more enjoyable than anything we ever recieved from Dayton !!!!
From: WSUGrad84....Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:49:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Dayton Daily News
Man, you are angry about this newspaper. While I admit the DDN is pretty bad, I don't think I'd spend so much of my life continuing to trash it.
I got really pissed at them when they announced they'd get new presses, and I wrote a letter to Brad Tillson. I wrote it on my company letter (to add credibility to my suggestion) and faxed it over. I was blown away at his stupid response.
What I had suggested was that the DDN should use their new presses to print the entire paper like a tabloid (just like the GO section.) I like that size. I think it would make more people read it. I like to read the paper at the breakfast table (uh, and search for mistakes. yeah) and the current size is too big.
Tillson wrote back. He didn't say anything professional like "thanks for your input, we'll consider it." Or "We appreciate your suggestion. We'll put it to a vote when it comes time." He said, "Sorry, we can't do that, cuz our advertisers won't like the smaller ads." That was it. He basically told me he didn't like the idea.
Needless to say, I'm done helping the DDN. I basically read free copies only, and tell people who ask what I think about the poor quality. Finally, I cancelled my subscription because it wasn't worth the money.
So that's what I think. By the way, I was a carrier as a teen for 8 years, my mom & uncle worked for them for 20 years, each, and I still have no loyalty.
Go figure.
WSUGrad84
From: 62nd LadyBug...Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:08:41 -0500
Subject: Dayton Daily News
I agree with you 100%. But there is an alternative Newspapers... Skywrighter (WPAFB) and of course The Suburban Newspapers of Dayton which covers over 17 communities each week. While Dayton Daily News circulation is declining community readers are increasing. Nobody lives in the city anymore, there's nothing to do and of course it's unsafe. That's why families and businesses (i.e..Dayton Daily News) are expanding outside the urban borders.
If you would like to respond to me please write to me at: jgilloon@yahoo.com
Have a good one :-)
OK ok ok... in response to the last several messages:
I don't spend a great deal of time trashing the ol' DDN anymore. Or doing anything else in my neck of cyberspace. Though I'm keeping the Orb-site up and limping, I don't even READ the DDN much anymore because I no longer live in the area. But....(here's the really ironic part)... I MISS it! And not just to poke fun at it. I live in the general vicinity of Detroit and I have to say that the Dayton Daily News is a better paper than either major offering up here. I still get back to Dayton to visit or on biz and I've realized that THANKS TO MY EFFORTS, THE DDN HAS VASTLY IMPROVED! But my work here is not done. I'd hate to see them get complacent, so I'll run this page a while longer. Keep those cards and letters coming.
From: BigDave....Date:Sun,7 Feb 1999 5:07 PM
Subject: Dayton Daily News
I agree wholeheartedly. This paper is pitiful. Bring on any competion and this will bring this embarrassing paper up to standards or out of business.
David Bignell
From: PG13....Date:Tue,9 Feb 1999 1:54 PM
Subject: Dayton Daily News
I am a faithful DDN reader, cover to cover every day. I am also a communications student. Dayton Daily News manages to break every journalism and media writing rule I have ever learned. They also have a very high concentration of articles taken from Associated Press and other news services. What exactly,then, do their own reporters write?
From: gottabeJames....Date:Wed,10 Feb 1999 6:23 PM
Subject: Dayton Daily News
You are right the ddn is poor.
Also take a turn at the local radio station whio 1290
They keep repeating WHIO 1290..WHIO 1290 ON AND ON
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO ANYONE?
I ALWAYS TOLD THE LATE LOU EM..HECK WE ARE ALL GETTING OLD..BUT YOU DON'T HAVE
TO KEEP TELLING ME OVER AND OVER (DOZENS OF TIMES IN A FIVE MINUTE PERIOD)
WHIO 1290..WHIO 1290
GIVE IT A LISTEN AND YOU WILL HEAR WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.
I CHANGE STATIONS A LONG TIME AGO..(WLW) EVER NOW AND THEN I'LL GIVE THEM
ANOTHER CHANGE..BUT ALL I HEAR IS WHIO 1290 WHIO 1290 OVER AND OVER..I AGAIN
GO BACK T O WLW..SO MUCH FOR ANOTHER DAYTON FAILURE..KINDA LIKE DOWNTOWN..A
WASTE
From: Oh Lisa....Date:Fri,12 Feb 1999 12:53 PM
Subject: Dayton Daily News
HI,
I read your opinion on the Dayton Daily and I have to agree. I used to complain about the paper all the time but then we moved to Cincinnati. The paper here is so much worse. THey make no attempt to present anything except the conservative viewpoint. I would take the Dayton paper over this one any day.
Lisa
From: Oh Lisa....Date:Fri,12 Feb 1999 1:07 PM
Subject: Dayton Daily News
HI,
I just read all the comments and noticed you had moved to the Detroit area. I grew up there and the Detroit Free Press used to be an excellent paper before it merged with the News in the joint operating agreement. I still read it when we visit but it;s nothing like it was. Too bad.
Lisa
From: GoodLookingChild....Date:Wed,17 Feb 1999 11:02 PM
Subject: Dayton Daily News
I lived in Dayton for most of my life, but quit reading the Dayton News when the USA Today first came out. I live in Jacksonville, Florida, and their paper is somewhat better for a local paper. I was recently in Dayton, and while driving up I-75 I was shocked to see the new structure owned by the Dayton Daily News. It looks like they are selling papers, but still saying nothing. I have even turned down free subscriptions from their paper. At least they could bring back the morning journal as an option...They are certainly not visionary or creative. The same hum drum stuff, much like the local Dayton evening news...I suppose Jim Baldridge is still lip synching the news? Of course I take partial blame. The local news in Dayton never caught my attention. I can access papers all over the world on my laptop. So keep bashing them....maybe it will provoke them to change...rattle their cage. but don't get your hopes up, until they change the upper management, they will continue to hire neophytes and crank out mediocre and sterile and boring news...good luck...
From: DoctorKelly....Date:Wed,17 Feb 1999 11:09 PM
Subject: Dayton Daily News
I agree totally. I stopped taking it and take the Springfield Sun now. Same owner (Cox) but much smaller, so less errors to wade through. Both papers publish whatever comes in first and don't bother to check sources or verify content. Then they don't print retractions. For a major market with over a million people, the level of quality of the TV, radio and print is more akin to that you'd find in a small market somewhere not near any major sources of education. The TV "faces" don't even realize it when they run the wrong video or read the teleprompter errors. Vacant minds reading vacuous prose. They will run the wrong weather tapes for hours on end and get mad when you bring it to their attention. DDN web page is out of date and hard to use most of the time. Coverage of sports outside the city limits is lacking and if you live in the suburbs, it's like you don't exist. Sad state of affairs!
From: X Porter....Date:Fri,2 Apr 1999 2:29 PM
Subject: Dayton Daily News
DDN must be owned and operated by Red Necks and the KKK; what liberals?
From: Meldman....Date:Mon,May 24 1999 4:30 PM
Subject: Dayton Daily News
did you see the headline "princess die injured" that was a classic dayton daily news error...
From: Irmarg....Date:Sat,May 29, 1999 5:26 PM
Subject: Cancel the Newspaper
Hello,
You are describing things that I have laughed at for years. I thought I was really losing something valuable when my wife (PO'd about the use of "headline journalism") cancelled our subscription. I thought I was going to be the only one in the Miami Valley unaware of what was going on.
It's been a month now, and I don't miss it at all. I realize that in the morning I used to read the first two pages or so, and throw the rest away. Now I realize that the news I DO GET from other sources is important to me and a lot more accurate.
WHIO in the morning reads the newspaper to me while I drive to work. So why buy a paper when I can hear the same crap over the air that is supplied with my vehicle. And what I have been hearing lately doesn't require a printed copy.
I'm not putting the local paperboy out of business because the lady who comes by at 5:30am, sure ain't no kid saving for college.
Believe me, no great loss here!!!
Charlie
From: K&C E....Date:Wed,July 7, 1999 9:10 PM
Subject: My Local Paper...
...is the Casper Star Tribune, and it attempts to be " Wyomings statewide local newspaper " not having a clue as to what an oxymoron this is, so it's all downhill from the masthead to the Sports section, which is home to the one page of abused comic strips, thereby making it the only section in the paper worth fighting over, the miserable thing.
Of course they have to truck the thing all over the state in the constant driving snow, trucks driven by people who don't own them and get paid less than their worth, who would rather stare at the graffiti on the inside of the stall door than pick up a copy of the "product" if it was at their feet.
Who cares if they print the thing at 5 P.M. so it can be delivered by 7 A.M. without a baseball score from any game started after 1 P.M. PST, they give you the box scores only two days later but shamelessly omit the walks and KO's along with the batter's average. I'm sure glad to have saved the time, I'd never get anything done if I had the Dallas Morning News to look at all day. These people are prone to lose jumps and miss cutlines among other errors common to the harried and overstressed but I forgive them all because of one redeeming quality. They have the best letters page I've ever seen. They print everything they receive, everything.
K.E.
Mighty big of 'em to award me with this, huh? That's just what they want you to think....(heh, heh)...
